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MidnightUsurper

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PostSubject: A Better Counter   Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:29 pm

If anyone has a better title for this thread, please tell me one.
I found this on SWF and thought it would be helpful
By the way, I take no credit. The credit belongs to NESSBOUNDER.


Quote :
Hi everyone. I don't have Brawl yet, but I plan to use Lucario as my third main.

One thing I noticed about Lucario players is that his down B attack isn't used very often. Much like Marth's counter, it's mostly forgotten. I love traditional fighting games, and counter-heavy characters are my favorite kind. I believe that proper use of this attack will improve Lucario's game greatly.

First of all, the trick to using any kind of countering attack is not to anticipate, but to read. Reading incoming attacks in Smash Bros is a lot easier than in say Soul Calibur for example. Throwing out a down b and hoping the opponent will knee-jerk and hit you only works occasionally, but there are cues within your opponent's attacks that will tell you exactly when to use this attack in order to get a guaranteed hit. In this topic, I'll be listing all the attacks PER CHARACTER that Lucario players should just learn to counter on reaction.

Reaction times are also a major factor in using this kind of move. Generally, you will not safely be able to counter something like Fox's Ftilt, seeing as the human brain needs about 12 frames to process and react to a stimulus. You won't be able to see these attacks coming and counter them every time. Attacks that hit before 12 frames of game time are no the ones you should be aiming to counter. However, there are many attacks that have longer startup times than this. You also need some leeway for the move itself, since Double Team is estimated to have a startup time of 3 frames.

First of all, let's look at the move itself. One of the greatest things about this particular counter is that it's fast to start. Faster than Ike's counter for example. Possibly faster than Marth's (this needs checking). The counter frames are inactive for a greater part of the animation, but they are generous enough so as not to be ridiculous. Another great thing about this move is that unlike Marth or Ike's counter, it has quite a bit of potential KO power dependent on the move itself and not the move that's been countered, and therefore can reliably KO at higher %, not being dependent on the opponent's attack. Apparently, the move also gets dramatically more powerful the higher Lucario's damage is, similar to his Aura Sphere.

OK, now let's go through the characters one by one:

MARIO

Mario doesn't really have any unsafe attacks, and most of his moves have pretty fast startup time and are rather inconspicuous. However, a lot of Mario players like to throw fireballs at you at close range, and then rushing in to attack with the cover that the fireball provides. Since Lucario dashes out a bit after countering a projectile, it's safe to attempt to counter a shorthopped fireball, you'll more than likely hit back.

On a more drastic note, Mario's side smash is pretty obvious to see coming. Generally if you counter as soon as you hear the "Wah!", you should counter the attack. But most Mario's won't be spamming this move anyway. Be wary of countering any smash attack, since they can be charged to throw you off.

LINK

In the same style as Mario, Link often throws projectiles at close range, especially the boomerang and arrows. Besides these, it's fairly safe to say that a Link that's coming down from above will try to land an aerial. Oddly, he doesn't have all that many moves that are easy to see coming this time around, since he's a bit faster than he was in Melee.

EDIT: Link's ftilt is recommended for counter. It has enough startup time to see it coming and act on reaction. Also, if the Link player is silly enough to try and come down on you from above with Dair, you know what to do.

KIRBY

Kirby is very fast in Brawl. His attacks come out really quick, but it's important to remember that his range is still limited. Kirby is also a very offensive character this time around, and rushes in with lots of tilts, running attacks and low aerials. While his tilts and smashes are generally too fast to counter, his up smash has some starting lag that can be used against him. As soon as he makes a sound, press down B immediately. It should also fairly safe to counter a Kirby who's coming down from above with a drill kick. If the first half of Final Cutter misses you, then it's easy pickings for counter. You can even shield the first hit and then counter as it comes down.

PIKACHU

Pikachu is fast, but he has some attacks that are perfect for Lucario's counter. The two biggest ones are his Fsmash and down B, thunder. Unless your shield is broken or you're recovering from some kind of lag, you have no excuse to block or dodge Pikachu's thunder. Even countering the bolt is a good idea, since Lucario drops down as he performs his counter animation, meaning that you'll dodge the bolt and slam Pikachu as you reappear on the ground. Pikachu's Fsmash is something that most characters would automatically shield if they saw it coming. Rather than shield, Lucario players should instinctively hit down B as soon as they hear the start of this attack. It's startup lag is just perfect for Lucario to punish with counter, and since most Pikachus will try to hit with it at mid range, you know the general spacing for where it should be most common.

EDIT: Lucario MAY have to be cautious while countering Thunder, as he CAN be hit while performing the attacking animation. Also, remember Pikachu's Fsmash can be held.

DONKEY KONG

DK's side smash and Giant punch are the two big ones here. Most DK players will try to combo into giant punch, so if you see it coming in any form, hammer down B like there's no tomorrow and hope you recover from your stun in time. Forward smash is more obvious. As soon as you see the little flash on his hands, counter immediately. His aerial attacks are also quite easy to see coming.
When facing DK, remember that he has a lot of range, but all his very fast attacks hit at close range. As soon as you move into his attacking range you can expect an Ftilt or a Dtilt to come flying your way, so check out your opponent and try to figure out their playing style by keeping just out of DK's attacking range. His forward B wouldn't be too commonly used, but it's safe to counter as soon as you see him rear his head back. His down B is also something to look out for, since the hitbox is really big and perfect for Lucario to counter on.

FOX
bleah. You will get more counters off on Fox if you just try to use down B and hope he hits you. None of Fox's moves are particularly readable with the exception of the Fire Fox and the Fox illusion, both of which are not commonly used as attacks and are somewhat hard to counter given the fact that they move him a great distance.

CAPTAIN FALCON
Pretty much all of Falcon's B moves except for his up B are perfect victims for Lucario's Double Team. Falcon Kick is pretty fast, but unless he's using it at point blank range, it's very hard to miss. Raptor boost is the same. It has a clear startup time and a predictable attack. Falcon Punch is...well since he can turn around during it, it's actually a good idea to counter it instead of rolling! If you haven't even slightly memorized the delay from "FALCON" to "PAUNCH!!" then you're not really a Smash Bros fan. Besides his B moves, Falcon's side smash and down smash are also pretty easy to see coming. Just wait for him to make that silly grunting noise and press down B, or wait till you see that little flash. Even his Ftilt and Utilt are somewhat readable, in that you can press down B as soon as you see the little "wind" effect around Falcon's ankles for his ftilt, and as soon as you see his leg go over his head for his up tilt.

SAMUS
Since Samus can still missile cancel, there's really no harm in using counter to get around these things at close range, especially since her super missiles start out slower in this game. Samus's smash attacks aren't all that slow, and her tilts are very fast, but if you're able to move and you see her do an Fsmash, it's safe to use down b as a reaction. (until she starts charging the move to fake you out.)

YOSHI
Yoshi's Fsmash, Forward B and down B are all perfect for Double Team. Most Yoshi's will also approach by using Bair from a short hop. Since this is one of his safest approaches, you can pretty much tell when this move is coming and counter it. Just doing this should eventually limit the Yoshi player's options significantly.

LUIGI
Treat Luigi as you would Mario, but it's usually just better to shield his green missile special rather than counter it. His tornado is an attack that you should be watching out for, since it's very safe and easy to spam. Luigi often attacks from the other side of the stage with this move. Because it starts so far away and will be moving towards you, it shouldn't be too hard to tell when to counter this move. It's probably not going to hit him, but at least it will avoid the attack most of the time.

JIGGLYPUFF
Get the timing for Wall of pain down and punish it once or twice, but eventually the Jigglypuff player will get wise to this and start faking you out with false shorthops. It's not particularly smart to try and counter Rollout either, since more often than not you'll just miss and Jigglypuff will just curve back around and hit you. I really can't think of any super obvious moves to watch out for, except maybe Fsmash and down smash, and both of them can be charged to annoy you anyway.

NESS
Ness is pretty fast and a lot of his attacks are very solid. However, PK Fire, PK Thunder and his baseball bat are all perfect targets for Counter. Just like Pikachu's thunder, it's perfectly fine to counter PK thunder in the air, as Lucario will drop down and hit Ness if he's above him. The baseball bat is not very fast and should be easy enough to see coming. PK Fire is probably the most obvious one, and it's definitely worth training yourself to hit down B just after you hear "PK FIRE!" This moves range is poor enough that Lucario can effectively counter it and strike Ness in most situations.

BOWSER
Basically all of Bowser's smash attacks are worth memorizing, as well as his Ftilt and other more obvious ones like his down B. Fire breath is also great, since it has limited range and Lucario will hit back most of the time if he counters this move, and it's pretty easy to see coming and can't be charged to fake you out. Don't try countering his Klaw though, I'm pretty sure it's a grab and therefore can't be countered.

FALCO
Treat him like Fox. He doesn't have any attacks that are easy to see coming, with the exception of his side and up B moves. You'll have more luck just trying to interrupt his attack strings. On another note, it's also a good idea to try to counter his short hopped lasers, since if you do this at close range, you basically stuff up his safest approach.

GANONDORF
Wow, he's like Captain Falcon in most cases, but even slower. Don't underestimate him, but keep in mind that a lot of his attacks are just begging to be countered, but yeah, you do not want to make any mistakes. Ganon's Side B is a grab, so remember not to counter that, and his Ftilt (Leonardas kick) is also rather fast and difficult to read. Aside from that look for all the same moves as Captain Falcon, and don't stuff up the timing of your counter. It may even be a good idea to play as Ganon for a while so you can get a better understanding of his moves so you know just how to counter them. It will be worth it.

EDIT: Ganon's volcano kick (up tilt) eats a lot off your shield if you block it. It's probably better to memorize the timing of this attack so you can counter it should you ever find a Ganon player who tries to use it on you.

ICE CLIMBERS
I'm not really sure what to think about them. Their attacks aren't all that difficult to understand, but they sure can hurt. Landing a counter on the Ice Climbers is pretty cool, since it attacks both of them and splits them up. Fsmash and running attack are two of their more obvious moves to watch out for.

ZELDA
Zelda is faster in this game, and she can afford to use Din's fire at close range, so as soon as you see her use this move, get ready to counter it. It's much better than just blocking the attack, since she can't move while she's casting this spell. Her side smash is fairly easy to see coming, but it's not something you'll be able to reliably counter every time unless you're very good. If you see her shorthop towards you at close range, get ready to counter as she'll most likely be using her lightning kicks.

DIDDY KONG
Diddy is one of those characters that is just hard to read. Approach with the same mindset as Fox and Falco. None of his attacks are particularly easy to see coming. Unless he's going psycho, it may just be easier to shield.

MR. GAME AND WATCH
Fsmash, Dsmash, Fair, Bair and Dair are all the attacks that are prime for countering. Much like Yoshi, G&W can approach by abusing his awesome turtle attack from a short hop. His other main attacks have just enough starting lag on each of them to see when to counter. Unfortunately, he only beeps AFTER the attack, so listening for his beep in order to time the counter isn't a very good idea.

IKE
Holey moley, it's Ganondorf all over again, but even scarier. Good Ike players tend to use his faster moves until you have enough damage for them to KO you , which is not much. Expect the same Bair approach as Yoshi and Game and Watch, and keep an eye out for most of his aerials. Only attempt to counter his quick draw at range, because it can be charged to throw you off. His Dair and Fsmash are easy pickings, since you can see the move coming even after it's been released. His Ftilt is also quite easy to see coming if you pay attention. But if you have a good eye for his attacks, you should find plenty of opportunity to land a counter on him instead of blocking and taking a bite to your shield.

KING DEDEDE
For a heavyweight, Dedede is really fast. You won't even expect his slower moves until too late. However, you can safely counter his Waddle dee throw at half its range. Some things to remember: Dedede has fairly limited range outside of his grab, Ftilt and Fsmash. His Ftilt has the most range out of any of his A moves, so if he's going to attack you with anything at mid-range, it'll either be that or a Waddle dee.
Having said that, don't expect to counter Dedede all that much, since he'll most likely be chain throwing you for most of the match, lol.




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Last edited by MidnightUsurper on Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: A Better Counter   Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:30 pm

The last part of it

Quote :
LUCAS
Lucas is pretty serious business. His PK fire has a lot more range and is faster than Ness's, meaning that he won't be using it too much at close range. His PK thunder can be treated the same, but his Fsmash is a bit faster than Ness's and it's safer to just block it. His up smash, on the other hand, is really slow, but God help anyone who gets hit by it. There aren't any major visual clues about this move, but prepare to counter as soon as you see him throw his hands into the air. Remember that this move has MASSIVE RANGE, more range than his Fsmash, both above and to the side of him. It shouldn't be hard to counter if you know what you're doing, but a good Lucas player will often use this when you're suffering from a negative frame disadvantage, so be careful.

MARTH
Ugh...if anyone has suggestions, can you give them to me please? Marth is just so fast and safe that I can't think of any obvious moves that would be easy to counter on reaction. His up smash will go through Lucario's dair, so it may be better to counter if you expect this attack.

PEACH
Turnips at medium range and Peach Bomber are pretty easy to see coming. Her floating Fair is also something you can keep an eye out for. She doesn't have too much range outside her running attack and turnips, and her up smash is a great KO move with great priority, so if you see her getting ready to hit you with it, don't try to interrupt it with a Dair, but go for a counter instead.

META KNIGHT
I wouldn't worry about trying to use counter on him unless he's going berserk and you think he'll attack you in a predictable way. I guess you could always try to counter his Fsmash, since it's one of his few KO moves and he'll be trying to land it when you're at higher %.

PIKMIN AND OLIMAR
Well...his attacks all have great range, and you can kind of guess when he's going to use his Pikmin to attack. He's not slow, but he's not super fast either. In some ways you should be able to "bait" his range by standing just within his major hitting distance and waiting for him to use a Pikmin move, but overall it's not really worth trying to counter him. Of course, if you see him throw a Pikmin at you, then counter it by all means, just don't go standing around waiting to counter him.

PIT
AS SOON AS YOU SEE BLUE, GET READY TO DODGE OR COUNTER. Pit's arrows are so spammable he can afford to use them at close range. They can be held, so countering them is not always the best bet. Pit's angel ring is also a great move to counter. As soon as you hear "NENENENENE" or "HAYAGAGAAA" (for the English version) then hammer down b. If you get trapped in this move, you can still hope to counter it if you DI out of it and then counter. Other than this, Pits moves are all very safe and quick. His Nair makes a good approach since it stays out so long, so it's not a bad idea to counter it if you see it coming towards you.

POKEMON TRAINER
I'll have to look into this one, since I don't know all of Charizard, Ivysaur and Squirtle's moves from memory yet.

ROB
His side B can be treated similar to angel ring. Other than that, he's surprisingly hard to predict and uses quite a few projectiles. I'll have to watch more ROB vids to get a better feel for his moves before I can recommend anything else. :/

Edit: his down air and Neutral air are both slow enough to counter on reaction.

SHEIK
Sheik is very similar to Fox/Metaknight/Marth in terms of fast moves and attacks that are difficult to read. She's a bit more of a rushdown style character, so you should be able to get out of some of her pressure strings by using counter at the right moments. But I really don't have much to suggest.

TOON LINK
Even though he's a Link clone, you won't be able to counter many of his moves on reaction at all. Even his Dair is so fast it will often hit you before you know what he's going to do. Just try to predict his patterns, other than that, don't bother with Double Team.

LUCARIO
Force Palm is really the only move that Lucario has that can be safely countered on reaction. His Fsmash can be charged to throw you off, but most lucario players won't be charging it much anyway. Close range shadow balls can be countered, but it's probably just safer to block them.

WOLF
All of Wolf's moves, other than his down air and up B come out too fast to counter on reaction. However, Wolf can afford to use his gun at close range, since the bayonet damages if it hits. If you see your opponent trying to use this move at close range, it's possible to use double team on either the gun or the blast.

WARIO
Wario's ftilt is just slow enough to see coming if you're really paying attention to him. Don't try to counter his bike, since that won't get much out of that. Besides these, he's really not as slow as you'd think. Just remember that Wario has an excellent aerial game. He can afford to attack with moves from a short hop, and has many lingering hitboxes. If you see him coming towards you with an early Ftilt, you can attempt to counter it without too much problem.

ZERO SUIT SAMUS
Her Forward B move has enough startup time to be countered on reaction, as does her down air. Her stun gun MUST be fired at close range, even though it's very fast. If you can see the bolt coming out, by all means try to counter it. Besides this, she's a fast character with fast moves.

SONIC
With a character like Sonic, you'd think you would have no attacks that could be countered on reaction, but this is not the case. Sonic's Dair and Homing attack are both very easy to see coming, especially the latter.

SNAKE
Snake is a tricky one. His basic moves are very powerful but fast. While his diveroll is a predictable approach, it is NOT safe to try to counter unless you're sure the opponent will use this attack. If you miss-predict, you can end up being grabbed or even worse, stuck with a C4. Snake's Nikita Missile has a very slow startup time and begins without much speed to the projectile itself. If you see Snake fire this, and you're not preoccupied with something else, run towards him and counter the missile before it picks up speed! If you do this properly, you WILL land a Double Team on Snake.

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PostSubject: Re: A Better Counter   Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:28 pm

Nice. This is quite useful. So, when you have decided on a new title, let me know so I can edit it for you. pig
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MidnightUsurper

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PostSubject: Re: A Better Counter   Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:17 pm

Poogach210 wrote:
Nice. This is quite useful. So, when you have decided on a new title, let me know so I can edit it for you. pig
Hmmm, how about "A Better Counter" or "Make Counter More Effective".
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PostSubject: Re: A Better Counter   Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:16 pm

MidnightUsurper wrote:
Poogach210 wrote:
Nice. This is quite useful. So, when you have decided on a new title, let me know so I can edit it for you. pig
Hmmm, how about "A Better Counter" or "Make Counter More Effective".
All right, I'll change it to "A Better Counter."
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